Legislature(1997 - 1998)
04/18/1997 09:13 AM Senate FIN
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
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MINUTES
SENATE FINANCE COMMITTEE
April 18, 1997
9:13 A.M.
TAPES
SFC-97, # 115, Sides 1 & 2 (000-590, 590-000)
SFC-97, # 116, Side 1 (000-219)
CALL TO ORDER
Senator Bert Sharp, Cochair, Senate Finance Committee,
convened the meeting at approximately 9:13 A.M.
PRESENT
In addition to COCHAIR SHARP, SENATORS PHILLIPS, TORGERSON
and ADAMS were present when the meeting was convened.
COCHAIR PEARCE, SENATORS DONLEY and PARNELL arrived as the
meeting was in progress.
Also Attending:
SENATOR JERRY MACKIE, SENATOR LYDA GREEN, REPRESENTATIVE AL
VEZEY, JAMES BALDWIN, Assistant Attorney General, Department
of Law; TUCKERMAN BABCOCK, Staff, Senator Green; DUANE
BUELL, Owner, Sporting Goods Store, Juneau; DICK BISHOP,
Executive Director, Alaska Outdoor Council; DEL SMITH,
Deputy Commissioner, Department of Public Safety (DPS);
LAUREE HUGONIN, Executive Director, Council on Domestic
Violence and Sexual Assault, DPS; ART SNOWDEN,
Administrative Director, Alaska Court System; ANN CARPENETI,
Assistant Attorney General, Criminal Division, Department of
Law; and aides to committee members.
Also Attending Via Teleconference:
Fairbanks: DONNA GILBERT; ROYCE CHAPMAN; MIKE PRAX;
Anchorage: KEN JACOBUS; RANDY SMITH; BRUCE OCKRASSA; MIKE
CORKILL, Alaska Peace Officers Association; Kodiak: DIANA
BUFFINGTON, District Chair, Republican Party; Kenai: PHIL
NASH, Attorney; ROD CHRISTOPHER, Instructor, Peninsula
Weapons Academy; BOB WISEMAN; RAYMOND CARR, Instructor, RNS
Protection Services; Homer: PATRICK JOHNSON, Law Enforcement
Alliance of America; Valdez: JOE MICHAUD, Police Chief,
Valdez Police Department; Barrow: BILL JONES; GREGG OLSON,
Training Officer, Gun Club; SCOTT CAMPBELL, Police Chief,
North Slope Borough; and HARRIS STUERMER.
SUMMARY INFORMATION
SB 9 CAPITAL PROJECT MATCHING GRANT FOR INDIAN
RESERVATION
SENATOR MACKIE testified on behalf of the bill.
SENATOR ADAMS MOVED SB 9 from committee with individual
recommendations. Without objection, SB 9 was REPORTED
OUT with previous zero fiscal notes from the Department
of Administration and the Department of Community and
Regional Affairs.
HB 112 AMEND DEFINITION OF "POLITICAL PARTY"
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY testified on behalf of the bill.
Testimony was heard via teleconference from DONNA
GILBERT, ROYCE CHAPMAN, MIKE PRAX, KEN JACOBUS, DIANA
BUFFINGTON and JAMES BALDWIN. SENATOR ADAMS MOVED
Amendment #1. COCHAIR SHARP objected. Amendment #1
FAILED by a 1 to 5 vote. SENATOR PHILLIPS MOVED CSHB
112(FIN) from committee with individual recommendations
and accompanying fiscal notes. SENATOR ADAMS objected.
The MOTION CARRIED by a 5 to 1 vote and CSHB 112(FIN)
was REPORTED OUT with a previous zero fiscal note from
the Department of Revenue and a fiscal note from the
Division of Elections (59.6).
SB 141 CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMITS
SENATOR GREEN testified on behalf of the bill. SENATOR
TORGERSON MOVED to adopt draft CS version "X" as CSSB
141(FIN). Without objection, it was ADOPTED. Also
testifying were TUCKERMAN BABCOCK, RANDY SMITH, BRUCE
OCKRASSA, MIKE CORKILL, PHIL NASH, ROD CHRISTOPHER,
PATRICK JOHNSON, JOE MICHAUD, BILL JONES, GREGG OLSON,
SCOTT CAMPBELL, HARRIS STUERMER, DIANE BUFFINGTON, BOB
WISEMAN, DUANE BUELL, DICK BISHOP, DEL SMITH, LAUREE
HUGONIN, ART SNOWDEN and ANN CARPENETI. The bill was
HELD for further consideration.
SB 9 CAPITAL PROJECT MATCHING GRANT FOR INDIAN RESERVATION
SENATOR JERRY MACKIE, Sponsor, testified on behalf of the
bill. He noted that a similar bill almost passed last
session. He explained that it clarified language to include
Metlakatla in the Capital Matching Grants program and
clarified the intent of the act. He pointed out that
Metlakatla also qualified for Unincorporated Community
grants and the bill corrects that by excluding the village
from that program. He addressed the question of whether the
bill would include other municipalities organized under
federal law as an Indian Reserve by stating that it only
applied to Metlakatla. He cited a letter from Attorney
General Bruce Botelho in support of the statement.
SENATOR ADAMS brought up the village of Venetie, commenting
that it should apply. SENATOR MACKIE referred to the
Attorney General's letter in response, stating that
Metlakatla was the only Indian Reservation recognized.
SENATOR ADAMS MOVED SB 9 from committee with individual
recommendations. Without objection, SB 9 was REPORTED OUT
with previous zero fiscal notes from the Department of
Administration and the Department of Community and Regional
Affairs.
HB 112 AMEND DEFINITION OF "POLITICAL PARTY"
REPRESENTATIVE AL VEZEY testified on behalf of the bill. He
explained that the bill addressed the fact that since 1970
the state had not elected a governor by majority vote. The
legislation would encourage that possibility by providing
additional means for a group of political active people to
qualify as a party. It did not reduce anything in current
statute but added to it as a supplemental way to qualify by
providing that a party with a certain number of registered
voters would not have to run a candidate but could still
maintain its party status.
SENATOR ADAMS asked about the three percent qualification.
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY explained that a party must have
registered voters equal to three percent of the votes cast
for governor in the preceding election. In response to a
question from SENATOR PHILLIPS, REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY
explained that current law requires a party had to run a
candidate and the candidate had to receive three percent of
the vote. HB 112 would change it so that it would allow
party status to vest based on registered voters.
The following testimony was heard via teleconference:
Fairbanks:
DONNA GILBERT testified in support of the bill. She
believed it was important, noting that governors had been
elected with as little as 38.9 percent of the vote, which
didn't allow for the majority to be represented. She
supported giving political parties a choice as to whether or
not they wanted to run a candidate in a statewide election.
She described the services provided by political parties and
described the effect of the bill.
ROYCE CHAPMAN spoke in support of HB 112. He believed it
would go a long way in helping every Alaskan to take part in
the political process. He did not believe it would limit
new or small parties. They would not be required to
concentrate on raising large sums of money just to be listed
on the ballot of a statewide race.
MIKE PRAX also supported the legislation. It not only
offered the opportunity to have the governor elected by a
majority, it also gave other philosophical groups the
opportunity to be recognized as a political party. Smaller
parties provided a valuable service.
Anchorage:
KEN JACOBUS testified in favor of HB 112 for reasons already
stated by others testifying. It made ballot access easier
which was important to encourage people to participate in
politics. Parties should not be forced to spend a lot of
money on a race they cannot win in order to maintain their
party status.
Kodiak:
DIANA BUFFINGTON, District Chair, Republican Party,
supported HB 112. She stated it allowed minor political
parties to become known and get their views out. It would
make it easier to get into the political process. She urged
the committee's support.
SENATOR ADAMS asked to hear from the Department of Law
concerning the legislation. He noted that he would be
offering an amendment to page 1, lines 10 and 12 that would
delete "preceding" and provide an effective date following
the 1998 election. His reasoning was related to fairness to
other organizations with regard to changing the law.
JAMES BALDWIN, Assistant Attorney General, Department of
Law, opposed the legislation. He stated that there was a
matter that involved the First Amendment of the U.S.
Constitution, that being ballot access and freedom of
political association. Courts require that the state show a
compelling governmental interest in support of a statute
that would affect ballot access. If there were some
disparate effect on political parties, there should be some
showing that this was the least restrictive means available
to establish a goal. He stated there was a disparate
treatment of now recognized political parties in the state
because of the way the numbers break out for registered
party members. The AIP's could sit out the next election
while the Greens, if they could not muster additional voters
to register their affiliation would not be able to sit out
to retain their recognized party status. If the goal was to
provide easier ballot access, it seemed to be at variance
with the goal of majority vote, because it would mean they
would not have a candidate on the ballot. The rationale of
easier ballot access did not seem to hold up and he believed
there was some other purpose for the legislation.
MR. BALDWIN continued by stating that if the idea was to
allow new political parties to form, there were other
impediments that needed consideration. Campaign finance
laws enacted last year had a different definition of
political party. It had to meet the three percent rule or
be recognized in the last five general elections. A newly
registered party would not be able to qualify under those
laws. He believed the legislation had "lawsuit written all
over it." He respected the sponsor's position but stated
there needs to be a much better case presented. He spoke
briefly of other alternatives available.
In response to a question from COCHAIR SHARP, MR. BALDWIN
stated it was much more difficult to get people to register
political affiliation than to get them to vote on a
confidential ballot.
SENATOR DONLEY asked if there had been any written opinion
from the attorney general's office regarding the
constitutionality of last year's campaign finance reform
act. MR. BALDWIN clarified that there was not an issue of
constitutionality, but a difference in definition. He
restated the qualification for a political party under that
act. Brief discussion ensued concerning constitutionality.
SENATOR ADAMS MOVED Amendment #1. COCHAIR SHARP objected.
SENATOR ADAMS reiterated his position that the amendment
provided an opportunity for political associations to put
their parties forward to give the people a choice. He
believed it was an equal and fair consideration for other
political groups, pointing out the legislation only
benefited one group.
A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION to adopt Amendment
IN FAVOR: Adams
OPPOSED: Phillips, Donley, Torgerson, Parnell, Sharp
Amendment #1 FAILED by a 1 to 5 vote.
General discussion followed regarding the bill. SENATOR
DONLEY and COCHAIR SHARP spoke in support. REPRESENTATIVE
VEZEY noted a copy of a letter from Richard Winger in
members' files that pointed out that the U.S. Supreme Court
that upheld a Louisiana law that required a party to have
five percent of registered voters or receive five percent of
the vote in an election. He stated HB 112 was well under
that threshold.
SENATOR ADAMS commented that the bill created limitations on
the rights of political associations. He stated that in the
next election the AIP would sit out the election while the
Green Party would have to put forth a candidate. He
believed it was politically motivated and opposed the
underlying tone of the legislation.
SENATOR PHILLIPS MOVED CSHB 112(FIN) from committee with
individual recommendations and accompanying fiscal notes.
SENATOR ADAMS objected.
A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION.
IN FAVOR: Donley, Torgerson, Parnell, Phillips, Sharp
OPPOSED: Adams
The MOTION CARRIED by a 5 to 1 vote and CSHB 112(FIN) was
REPORTED OUT with a previous zero fiscal note from the
Department of Revenue and a fiscal note from the Division of
Elections (59.6).
SB 141 CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMITS
SENATOR LYDA GREEN testified on behalf of the bill. She
recalled last year's bill, SB 177, which was vetoed, and
stated that SB 141 addresses some of the same concerns. She
described differences in a proposed CS, version X. It
extended the time frame for issuing a permit from fifteen to
thirty days. Language was also amended to reflect the
intent to not permit felons to ever carry concealed weapons.
Another provision dealt with an instruction book with
pertinent information concerning where it would be legal to
carry concealed by making it consistent with where one could
carry openly. A fourth change related to concerns raised
last year about alcohol. A person carrying concealed would
be prohibited from drinking alcohol in a restaurant. The
last change had to do with permitting peace officers in
Sections 4, 6 and 9. There had been some statewide
objection, but she did not feel it was unreasonable to
include peace officers. The main premise of the bill was
that those permitted to apply for a concealed weapon permit
and the places a person could carry a weapon would be
consistent with those who were permitted to carry openly.
It did not make sense to have a list of prohibitions for
those carrying concealed when one did not exist for those
who simply owned a gun. The consistency would reduce
confusion and make the privilege of carry concealed what it
was intended to be.
SENATOR TORGERSON MOVED to adopt draft CS version "X" as
CSSB 141(FIN). Without objection, it was ADOPTED.
SENATOR ADAMS inquired what was being eliminated in the
qualifications under the repealers. He asked if alcoholics
would be able to get a permit.
SENATOR GREEN responded that a list in federal law of people
prohibited from carrying openly addressed alcohol and drug
abuse. She believed the list was in committee files in a
document from Legal Services dated 3/24/97. SENATOR ADAMS
inquired about the repealer section, specifically AS
18.65.740, and asked for the rationale.
End SFC-97 #115, Side 1, Begin Side 2
TUCKERMAN BABCOCK, Staff, Senator Green, explained that
being convicted of two class A misdemeanors did not prevent
carrying a handgun. If the intent of the legislature was to
prohibit that, it would be a different issue than
specifically trying to address the 6,000 people who have
permits.
SENATOR PARNELL pointed out a difference from last year's
bill in that SB 141 greatly reduced the list of
qualifications and requirements to obtain a permit. He
questioned whether federal law covered those because he was
unsure if it was even enforced in the state. He suggested
including the list in statute. He asked which of the
repealed sections were not covered by federal law.
MR. BABCOCK responded that the list under AS 18.65 related
only to those who apply for a concealed carry permit. It
was a different list from those who could openly carry a
handgun. All current prohibitions for people who openly
carry a handgun would apply to those who applied for a
concealed permit. The bill did not repeal any federal or
state prohibition except those specifically referenced for
the concealed carry and only apply to 6,000 people.
COCHAIR SHARP called for statewide teleconference testimony
next. He asked that testimony be limited to two minutes to
allow everyone an opportunity to testify.
Anchorage:
RANDY SMITH favored the bill. He stated that it puts all
Alaskans on an equal basis. He supported the provision on
page 6, line 2 permitting retired law enforcement officers,
but suggested a two year period for additional flexibility.
He expressed a problem with the renewal section and
suggested it include an update of federal and state law and
a demonstration of competence. Another option would be to
require the department to notify permittees by certified
mail of any changes of the law within thirty days of the
effective date.
BRUCE OCKRASSA testified in support of SB 141. He believed
that concealed carry laws were saving lives by reducing
violent crime.
MIKE CORKILL, Alaska Peace Officers Association, spoke to
two provisions they had requested. He supported including
police officers both within the state and from out-of-state.
Retired peace officers had already received extensive
training and he supported the waiver of some of the
permitting process. He did not believe reciprocity for out-
of-state permittees should be recognized across the board
because other states permitting process was not as stringent
as Alaska's. He also firmly believed that no convicted
felon should ever be allowed to apply for a permit. He
supported fees remaining the same.
Kenai:
PHIL NASH, Attorney, stated the fee issue was a non-issue.
He noted that copies of current law were already provided in
instructional classes. He referred to the repealer brought
up earlier and explained that it would not affect anything.
He supported reciprocity in order to allow Alaskans to
carry concealed outside the state. He opposed the
provisions for former administrative police officers, but
not for "street cops." A special rule would perpetuate a
"them and us mentality."
ROD CHRISTOPHER, Instructor, Peninsula Weapons Academy,
supported the provision for retired police officers, but
believed they should take the law enforcement class to be
brought up to date. Regarding restaurants serving alcohol,
he believed that as long as a permittee stayed in the
restaurant part of the establishment and did not consume
alcohol, he should be allowed to carry a handgun in there.
He believed the qualifications standards for classes should
be raised.
Homer:
PATRICK JOHNSON, Law Enforcement Alliance of America,
supported the inclusion of retired police officers, training
requirements and reciprocity with other states.
Valdez: JOE MICHAUD, Police Chief, Valdez Police Department,
expressed his appreciation for the response to law
enforcement personnel about some of their concerns. He
briefly addressed the issue of reciprocity and spoke in
favor of it.
Barrow:
BILL JONES testified in support of the bill. He supported
carrying concealed in restaurants rather than having to
leave the weapon in a vehicle. He also supported the
reciprocity provision for protection for Alaskans traveling
out-of-state.
GREGG OLSON, Training Officer, Gun Club, supported SB 141.
He appreciated the exemption for former police officers. He
briefly addressed training of the legal portion of the
permitting process.
SCOTT CAMPBELL, Police Chief, North Slope Borough, supported
the bill and appreciated the inclusion of police officers.
He urged passage of the bill.
HARRIS STUERMER testified in support, particularly the
restaurant provision and the reciprocity provision.
Kodiak:
DIANA BUFFINGTON, District Chair, Republican Party,
supported SB 141 because she had been a rape victim and felt
women should be able to protect themselves. It would reduce
domestic violence. She believed women particularly needed
the law and it would make it easier to enact Second
Amendment rights.
Kenai:
BOB WISEMAN supported the legislation for law-abiding
citizens. He didn't support giving special privileges to
former law enforcement officers. He supported reciprocity.
He suggested using the commercial drivers' .04 blood alcohol
level guideline for concealed carry permitting.
RAYMOND CARR, Instructor, RNS Protection Services, testified
in favor of SB 141 as written.
The following individuals testified in person in Juneau:
DUANE BUELL, Owner, Sporting Goods Store, Juneau, supported
SB 141. He believed the bill was good for the permitting
process. Reciprocity was a non-issue in that history in
other states show now problems. He supported legal training
for retired police officers.
DICK BISHOP, Executive Director, Alaska Outdoor Council,
stated the council's support for the adopted version CSSB
141(FIN). He supported consideration for ensuring retired
police officers be kept current on laws.
DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Public Safety
(DPS), testified that the concealed law was working well.
There were 6,325 permittees as of 4/11/97. No permits had
been rescinded for bad acts because of the effective
screening process. He brought up a concern about rescinding
the list of places where individuals were not allowed to
carry concealed weapons as it related to domestic violence
shelters. He supported meeting Alaska standards regarding
reciprocity. In response to a question from SENATOR ADAMS
regarding a thirty-day time period, he stated they could not
get the necessary information from the FBI in that amount of
time. They could take up to five months in getting back
with a report, so they conduct a statewide check. If there
is not indication of a problem, they submit the fingerprints
to the FBI and issue a conditional permit. The average time
was thirty days from the point of application to the
issuance of a permit.
SENATOR TORGERSON noted a provision referencing existing
statute that municipalities and villages could have a local
election opting to exclude concealed weapons. He inquired
if there were any existing. MR. SMITH was not aware of any.
LAUREE HUGONIN, Executive Director, Council on Domestic
Violence and Sexual Assault, DPS, expressed concern with
Sections 10, 13 and 15. Section 10 reduced the restrictions
for qualifying permitees. She believed it was vague and
referred to AS 12.55.015, noting that someone could still be
eligible to possess a handgun. The court may order a
forfeiture, but didn't have to. She also had concern that
there was no list under AS 11.61.200 and believed federal
law was not expansive enough to cover what was needed.
ART SNOWDEN, Administrative Director, Alaska Court System,
did not have a position. He suggested adding a section to
prohibit the carrying of firearms in a judicial facility,
with the exception of police officers, security guards and
those that were part of evidence.
End SFC-97 #115, Side 2
Begin SFC-97 #116, Side 1
In response to a question from SENATOR PARNELL, MR. SNOWDEN
acknowledged that there was a court rule prohibiting
firearms, but no law. People generally didn't know court
rules and he believed a law would be appropriate. SENATOR
ADAMS asked about federal laws. MR. SNOWDEN responded that
there was a federal law that bans firearms in federal court,
but it did not apply to state court.
SENATOR ADAMS brought up concerns regarding people with
alcohol and drug problems and the repealer section
concerning training.
MR. BABCOCK explained the repealer applied only to renewal,
it was still a requirement for the original permit.
Regarding the first concern, a person prohibited from
possessing a handgun under state or federal law would also
be prohibited from applying for a concealed carry permit.
He referred to the 3/24/97 memo regarding the standards that
would apply. There was additional discussion among SENATORS
PARNELL, PHILLIPS, GREEN, ADAMS and MR. BABCOCK regarding
clarification of the repealers section.
ANN CARPENETI, Assistant Attorney General, Criminal
Division, Department of Law, explained the that a revision
in the penalty section eliminated a B misdemeanor for
carrying where prohibited, but did not provide a
corresponding violation. SENATOR ADAMS believed there
should be a penalty.
COCHAIR SHARP asked if there would be forthcoming
amendments. SENATORS ADAMS and PHILLIPS affirmed they would
be proposing amendments. In response, COCHAIR SHARP
announced that the bill would be HELD for further
consideration.
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was adjourned at approximately 11:00 A.M.
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